Quality Construction Matters
July 2024 | Austin, TX
Miss the East Austin Bi-Weekly Coffee - Constrcution Quality Matters
We recorded it for you. Watch the full video HERE
Speakers / Experts
Guy Dudley | Manhard Consulting | Engineer + Project Manager / Owner Representative
Collins Bruner | Offenhauser & Co | Commercial Real Estate Insurance Broker
Construction Quality: Pay for Excellence Upfront or Face Costly Consequences Later
Importance of Construction Quality: DeLea Becker emphasized the critical importance of construction quality in all projects. If you can’t build it right, don’t build it at all. Poor construction has more than a negative monetary impact.
Panel Introductions: Overview of the expertise and focus areas of the panelists: Guy Dudley (civil engineering), Rommel Sulit (architecture), Collins Brunner (insurance), and Jeremy Smith (general contracting).
Role of Civil Engineering: Guy Dudley discussed how civil engineering sets the groundwork for construction projects, highlighting the importance of utilities, drainage, and grading.
Architectural Perspectives: Rommel Sulit elaborated on the impact of quality design, focusing on the collaboration between developers, design teams, and contractors.
Contractor’s View on Quality: Jeremy Smith shared insights on the importance of executing design visions correctly and the pitfalls of cutting corners.
Insurance Insights: Collins Brunner provided an overview of insurance trends, emphasizing how better construction quality leads to lower premiums and fewer liabilities.
Challenges in Construction: The panel discussed evolving best practices, economic factors, regulatory changes, and technological advancements affecting construction quality.
OCIP and CCIP Programs: Detailed explanation of Owner Controlled Insurance Programs OCIP and Contractor Controlled Insurance Programs CCIP, with real-world examples.
Project Duration and Insurance Costs: Collins highlighted the importance of realistic timelines to manage insurance costs effectively.
Coordination Between Disciplines: Guy Dudley and Rommel Sulit stressed the importance of coordination between all team - engineers, architects, and general contractors, particularly in transitional areas like grading and water management.
Introduction and Speaker Background
- Networking and Panel Introduction
- Panelist Introductions
- Discussion on Construction Quality
- Civil Engineering Insights
- Architectural Perspectives
- General Contractor's Role
- Insurance Market Overview
- Building Practices and Insurance
- Understanding OCIP and CCIP Insurance Policies
- Project Duration and Insurance Costs
- Construction Quality and Insurance Rates
- Coordination Between Civil Engineers and Architects
- Special Inspections and Responsibilities
- Quick Flips vs. Long-Term Projects
Understanding THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM
Each team member is important. The more they collaborate the quicker a project can go as cross over and transitional elements can be handled swiftly.
The Role of Civil Engineering in Construction
• Guy Dudley explained how civil engineering sets the groundwork for construction projects, emphasizing that good design starts with solid civil engineering. He detailed complexities like utilities, drainage, and grading, which are fundamental to a project’s success.
Architectural Perspectives on Quality
• Rommel Sulit elaborated on how quality design impacts project outcomes, discussing the “Holy Trinity” of development: the developer, the design team, and the contractors. He emphasized the importance of these roles working together to bring a project from concept to reality, incorporating building codes, life safety, and aesthetic values.
General Contractor’s View on Quality
• Jeremy Smith shared insights on the contractor’s role in executing design visions and maintaining construction quality. He recounted challenges faced and lessons learned, such as the parking lot issue with a coffee shop project, underscoring the importance of getting things right the first time to avoid costly fixes later.
Insurance Insights and Market Trends
• Collins Brunner provided a comprehensive overview of insurance trends, especially in the context of rising premiums and unpredictable weather events. He explained how better construction quality leads to lower insurance premiums and fewer long-term liabilities.
Challenges and Best Practices in Construction
• The panel discussed various challenges in the construction industry, including evolving best practices and the importance of adhering to them. Economic factors, regulatory changes, and technological advancements were highlighted as significant influences on construction quality.
Understanding OCCIP and CCIP
• A significant portion of the discussion was devoted to understanding Owner Controlled Insurance Programs (OCCIP) and Contractor Controlled Insurance Programs (CCIP). The experts explained the benefits and drawbacks of each, providing real-world examples to illustrate their points.
Project Duration and Insurance Costs
• Collins highlighted the critical role of project duration in determining insurance costs. He advised being realistic about timelines to ensure cost-effectiveness and proper risk management.
Construction Quality and Insurance Rates
• The direct correlation between construction quality and insurance rates was emphasized, highlighting that higher upfront quality can lead to significant long-term savings.
Coordination Between Civil Engineers and Architects
• Guy Dudley and Rommel Sulit discussed the importance of coordination between civil engineers and architects, particularly in transitional areas like grading and water management. They shared instances where lack of coordination led to issues and how such problems can be mitigated.
Special Inspections and Regulatory Compliance
• Rommel Sulit stressed the importance of special inspections as mandated by the International Building Code (IBC) Chapter 17. He emphasized the need for third-party reviewers and the role of city inspectors in ensuring compliance.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
• The panel concluded with a robust discussion on the importance of maintaining high standards in construction to ensure long-term success and mitigate risks. The insights shared by the panelists provided attendees with valuable perspectives and practical advice for enhancing construction quality in future projects.
Tune in to this insightful discussion to gain a better understanding of construction quality from leading industry experts. Whether you’re a developer, contractor, or simply interested in construction, this session provides valuable perspectives and practical advice.
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Full Panel Transcript
Youtube Video - Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Speaker Background
00:53 Networking and Panel Introduction
01:31 Panelist Introductions
02:09 Discussion on Construction Quality
05:04 Civil Engineering Insights
08:13 Architectural Perspectives
10:36 General Contractor's Role
12:53 Insurance Market Overview
15:28 Building Practices and Insurance
25:40 Understanding OCIP and CCIP
26:22 Project Duration and Insurance Costs
27:09 Construction Quality and Insurance Rates
29:24 The Role of Civil Engineers
31:56 Coordination Between Civil Engineers and Architects
35:25 Special Inspections and Responsibilities
40:43 Quick Flips vs. Long-Term Projects
44:47 The Importance of OSIP in Construction
48:28 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
East Coffee Construction Quality July 2024 from capcut
[00:00:00] DeLea Becker: Hello Everybody And Thank you for joing us on this Friday Morning, I know you are all very busy and have things to do. But you probably find this topic as interesting as I do. So, I am DeLea Becker, Beck-Reit Commercial. In addition to that, I own Beck-Reit Sons, we do TxDot Road and Bridge Repair. 25 year old company, and the reason, one of the reasons why I care about construction quality so much, is when people say, well it doesn't always matter.
[00:00:26] DeLea Becker: I'm like, really? Do you care about the bridge you drive across? I assure you, you do. So, by nature, I really care about construction quality. I own buildings, I care about construction quality. And I can talk hours then Realized it would be better to bring some experts up here that are much calmer about it and come from different perspectives, which is valuable because they even teach me.
[00:00:53] DeLea Becker: The thing I did want to say today is, there is no rhyme or reason to my networking, [00:01:00] but I end up meeting some incredible people. So All of these gentlemen I have met at random things. I wasn't there to get business. When we met, I didn't get business from them per se. But I get value from people I meet and so, that is how this is formed.
[00:01:16] DeLea Becker: They come from different points of view. Construction, engineering, architecture, insurance. The back end of what happens whenever you have bad construction. I'm going to let them take it from here. Thank you. They can take questions like we did last time. We can let them rant and rave and educate us. It's really very casual.
[00:01:40] DeLea Becker: This isn't Bisnow or RECA where it's planned out. I am recording. I'm an amateur at this. It is so that I can go back, make a transcription, and share it with people that work here. I don't have a million followers. Maybe someday. But this is really good information. If you don't know much about [00:02:00] construction, construction quality, architecture that leads into it, I hope you leave here knowing more than you did, and you care more, after today.
[00:02:09] DeLea Becker: Guy, I'll let you lead us off
[00:02:11] Guy Dudley: in. Well, good morning. I'm Guy Dudley. I'm with Manhard Consulting. We are a 51 year old civil engineering firm based out of Chicagoland. We've got seven offices here in Texas. Dallas, Houston, and Austin. We do land development, we do survey, we do landscape architecture, and owners rep construction management.
[00:02:32] Guy Dudley: And last, you know, most of my adult have been in construction and development.
[00:02:38] Rommel Sulit: Hello, . Rommel Sulit, I'm a founding prinCCIPal, COO and director of modular architecture for Forgecraft Architecture and Design. , we're entering in our 11th year. , as a company, I would say that our, our areas of focus are, multifamily of all sorts, including affordable housing, permanent supportive housing, multifamily housing.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Rommel Sulit: Yes, we're crazy enough to do condos, , and then also, sort of like building science forward projects, , passive, , home design, passive building design, advanced prefabrication , and modular architecture.
[00:03:14] Collins Bruner: , Collins Brunner. I'm the insurance I like to say. , I guess the developer construction expert.
[00:03:20] Collins Bruner: , I've been in the business 20 plus years. I'm actually based out of Texarkana. But third generation. So my father are down here every other week doing business. Our kind of claim to fame down here is the Lauren Hotel development. So we did it. The OSIP while it was being built, we did the builder's risk.
[00:03:39] Collins Bruner: We did the permanent insurance on it now. , they're doing one in Turks and Caicos. So that's about a 150 million project. So we did the builder's risk on that. , it's called something different, but we're basically doing the OSIP down there as well. So we're, kind of international. , our other big claim to fame that people would know is we did Dillard's property insurance.
[00:03:57] Collins Bruner: So have a [00:04:00] little, fortune 500 company. So I kind of know what's coming down the pipe that renews in January. So I kind of know what's going to happen for the rest of the year. , so that's kind of where property focus, try to add value, not just sell a basic, simple, you know, we'll do a restaurant, but we'd much rather do a development and get into the contract and, and try to help you navigate some of the down the line issues.
[00:04:24] Jeremy Smith: Very good. Jeremy Smith, Citadel Development Services. DeLea, thank you very much. This is, this is awesome. We are a at the core, we're a general contractor based here in Austin. We do have pre construction teams that, that basically do everything from site acquisition all the way through handing over the set of keys to the final product.
[00:04:43] Jeremy Smith: And that final product can be restaurants, retail. We're getting into multifamily. We've got a, a condo project going on in South Austin that we're really excited about. Thank you. We're about 25 employees, so we're relatively small and we operate here just inside of Texas, primarily. But, really, yeah, really glad to be here and talk about [00:05:00] construction and, and whatever else comes up, so.
[00:05:04] DeLea Becker: Guy, I'm gonna let you lead us off because you said it all starts with Civil. Good design, good development, good building.
[00:05:15] Guy Dudley: That was a good one, I did say that. But that's not, that's not, I did say that, that's not right. It starts with the developer. I mean, the developer has the idea. There is a need. Now you've got developers for fee, you've got developers that are doing single family master plan communities, you have developers that are doing a single entity.
[00:05:34] Guy Dudley: But it all starts with the guys with the money. And at the end of the day, I think what you're talking about, you're bringing up the quality of construction. It depends, in my opinion, what your point of the development is. If you're looking from the P& L versus, Hey, we just need to get this built, turned around, flipped, and sold.
[00:05:54] Guy Dudley: That is a different mindset than somebody who's working off the balance sheet. Hey, [00:06:00] this is something we're going to hold forever. For example, you have an apartment. You don't want to put gas in our apartments. Why? Natural gas. Oh, it costs a Well, yeah, it's a lot easier, faster, cheaper to do electric market, especially multifamily running through it or a single family development.
[00:06:20] Guy Dudley: Don't put natural gas in. It's cheaper. I don't care. I'm turning it around. It's cheaper. It helps more people. I can be finished with it. Or you do put natural gas in the building. It's going to cost a ton more. You have a lot more piping. It's a lot more safety. It's a lot more coordination. The price point is going to be higher.
[00:06:38] Guy Dudley: Well, Is your end buyer going to use that? We'll pay for it, versus the other way around. To me, it boils down to where is the goal? What is the point of the development? Now, to make the joke, the design side and actually from the construction side, yes, it starts with the civil engineer. Like, literally, we are setting the table of what's going to happen.
[00:06:59] Guy Dudley: Like, we're not the [00:07:00] chef. We're not the guy back in the kitchen bringing it out. We're not the staff coming in to bring the food. We're just setting the table. All these other people. Pretty. I mean, I mean to that to a civil screws up. The roads are wrong. Utilities are wrong. I guess let me jump back real quick.
[00:07:24] Guy Dudley: Anybody like nobody hears from a civil engineer. You don't hear about the civil engineer until something goes wrong. And the only time you have, well, it's all the same. How hard could it be? Like these guys like gravity goes downhill. Well.
[00:07:40] Guy Dudley: Water Out. How hard is this Until you have a bad civil engineer, I get that across the board. You have a bad, how hard is it? They just draw lines onto the city. Okay, oh come on, it can't be that hard to build something. I'll just go down to Home Depot and get some guys. It can't be that big of a deal. Until [00:08:00] you have a bad experience, you're like, Oh, that's why you pay for quality.
[00:08:03] Guy Dudley: That's why you pay for experience. That's why you pay for that. So start at the beginning from the civil, everything else is built up. Architect? Yeah, then architect.
[00:08:11] DeLea Becker: You have to architect next.
[00:08:13] Rommel Sulit: So, I think, to your point about setting the table, I like to think about it as the sandbox we've all been playing in for decades.
[00:08:22] Rommel Sulit: And we probably take for granted what we call best practices, which actually, I put best in quotes because it's just conventional practice. I don't know anymore if it's best today, in today's market. I always think of a of every project as comprised of this Holy Trinity of the developer, the designers, which includes, you know, civil architects, all the consultants and then contractors.
[00:08:48] Rommel Sulit: So at the highest level, there's the conceptual and fiduciary responsibility, which falls on the developer. And also the developer ultimately carries all the risk, in the end, [00:09:00] on a project. So that's something that, that's what gives them the right to let's say, affect all our work. At the, at the other level is, are the design teams.
[00:09:11] Rommel Sulit: Where we are we're here to make build the reCCIPe. And create no one gets into this field without Without this kind of like expectation of some benefit, I feel. Whether who that benefits, that's kind of a question. But ultimately, it should benefit the community and also benefit the folks that are building it in the first place, right?
[00:09:33] Rommel Sulit: And then the third aspect of it is execution. Which is, you know, now it falls out of the contractor to take these, this plan that is reflective of the fiduciary responsibility of the developer. And then also intended to sort of coalesce all the things that are important for a project to exist. Whether it's mandatory building code, life safety, all the aesthetic benefits of it, [00:10:00] the ability to allow that project to enable the users to live, work, and play.
[00:10:05] Rommel Sulit: Alright, so that's how I think of every project. So to me, the question is, are our best practices Still relevant today, given the events of the last 10 years.
[00:10:19] DeLea Becker: All right. Then he gets to the G. C.
[00:10:25] Jeremy Smith: The G. C.
[00:10:26] DeLea Becker: He has no control over design. Let's just pretend and you get the plans and tell us what the G. C. does next
[00:10:36] Jeremy Smith: The G. C. Gets to execute the vision of the design team, you know, and and When I think about quality in construction everybody's got a shitty contractor story. Everybody's, you know, had got a story about a contractor that it didn't go so well. And when I think about that, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
[00:10:53] Jeremy Smith: And I think we've been In the world in our business anyway. And what I've been doing over the last 20 years has been [00:11:00] repeat business. We get in with concepts that want to scale and build a lot. And so you know, reputation brand is very important. And for us to get involved with something that's not built correctly and have to go back and fix it.
[00:11:13] Jeremy Smith: It just doesn't feel good, right? So we want to be able to get to the end of a project. And, you know, the romantic side of it is we want the design team to be proud of what we built because we're on that team together. We want the owner, the developer to be proud. We don't want to circle back around and have to start dealing with a lot of issues and problems after the fact, which can come from cutting corners, trying to save money, you know, doing a lot of stuff that are going to create problems.
[00:11:35] Jeremy Smith: Operationally or whatever with the building after the fact, you know, we just, I don't like having those conversations. You know, we, we a quick example is we do a lot of work for a coffee concept that's building a lot of stores and admittedly we agreed to do to cut a corner on their behalf at the end of a project to do a parking lot.
[00:11:54] Jeremy Smith: Probably not the best way we should have done it, but it was in service of getting open quick and a [00:12:00] portion of the parking lot failed. And so we had to turn around and go back and fix it. So not only is it a, is it a for selfishly for our company, is it a branding issue? It's a, it's a financial issue, right?
[00:12:10] Jeremy Smith: So now you can talk about it's, it's definitely cheaper to do things right the first time than it is to have to turn around and fix it on the back end. Right. And again, selfishly, we can make more money. doing it right the first time, building it per the plans, honoring all that than it is to try to cut a corner.
[00:12:27] Jeremy Smith: And then where we have to go back and fix something at the end where it gets to be exponentially more expensive to do that. And not only that, obviously we want to get to the end of the project and we want to move on to the next project and not have to keep going back and back and back and back. So, you know, again, We can definitely go down the rabbit hole of quality with a lot of other things, but I think that's the first two things that come to my mind when discussing quality and construction.
[00:12:53] Collins Bruner: Yep, so on the property front, because I know everybody's facing higher premiums, I'd step back and just kind of tell you how [00:13:00] we got here. So if you think back to 2008 2009 financial crisis, zero percent interest. So you, you know, there's always capital. It's always looking for a home to make money. So a lot of that money went into reinsurance.
[00:13:13] Collins Bruner: I'm going to step back real fast and say, the one thing no one talks about is, so the travelers, the CNAs of the world, they all buy reinsurance. Lloyd's creates that market, Lloyd's is that market. And so that money ended up in reinsurance, 08' 09'. If you think about it, we didn't have a single hurricane to hit.
[00:13:30] Collins Bruner: The US from about 2008 to 2018, there was nothing. So you had this, so you had rates decreasing. And I should step back and say one other thing. The insurance market is always going through hard markets. And soft markets. It's not perfect because there's actuarials and they're trying to predict what's gonna happen.
[00:13:49] Collins Bruner: So it's already doing this. So we did this till 2018 and you had this money that wasn't used to A having losses and B, making [00:14:00] easy money. And then C once the losses started coming, they're like, ah, this isn't as great as we thought. So that started getting out and then you had you started having some hurricanes 18, 19, then you had COVID.
[00:14:12] Collins Bruner: So what's happened post COVID is Inflation, so you had actuarials predicting in 2020. We're going to have this amount of losses We're going to have this amount of premiums this kind of rate. So what's happened is the time to rebuild is Exponentially longer and the cost to rebuild And so you have a lot of it under insurance, so people aren't insuring what it should be insured for.
[00:14:37] Collins Bruner: And it's taking more to repair, and it's taking longer to repair. So that's why everybody's going, I mean, just getting beat over the head with it. And you've had people move to Texas, more, more tornadoes, more hail we can argue about the cause of that. Some of that's just, you know, people are going out west, people are going north.
[00:14:57] Collins Bruner: I mean, that's where the storms are. So more people are getting [00:15:00] hit, and so each storm is being bigger and bigger. So that's why we're all feeling rate increases. So back to the construction, the better the construction, the cheaper the premium and it's supply and demand. So the more supply there is in the market for your project, the there's more demand, your rates are going to be less.
[00:15:21] Collins Bruner: And I can go into more details on that, but that's, that's kind of like how we got to where we are, if that makes sense.
[00:15:28] Rommel Sulit: So, so this is where conventional practice comes involved, right? You're, you're presenting this. This this very clear delineation that if you, if you build into the construction on the front end, your premiums are going to be safer down the road.
[00:15:45] Rommel Sulit: And yet, why do developers that I've worked with continue to sort of fall back on their own let's say preconceptions about building design? So I'll give you an example. There was a project that we're working on in Houston where you know, [00:16:00] they wanted to do stucco on the building. And in our experience, I know this is something, this is kind of what started this whole thing, because the conversation that DeLea and I had at Knockout Night.
[00:16:10] Rommel Sulit: They wanted to do stucco. In our experience, commercial grade stucco is, is a tough thing to, to get done right. So we prefer EFIS, right? Our envelope consultant has presented a lot of information where the insurance companies are actually seeing the benefits of EFIS. More so than stucco. Part of the reason for that is that that panel has built in drainage layer.
[00:16:35] Rommel Sulit: So flash forward to 2021, this project was designed under 2012 building code, 2021 building code. Now in that section that covers stucco and let's say fiber cement panels. Now you're mandated to have to have a drainage layer in there. Our contra, our developer. We designed our, our project in, in, in [00:17:00] antiCCIPation of that.
[00:17:01] Rommel Sulit: So all our designs, whether it was fiber cement or stucco or EFIS, had drainage litters showed. They value engineered it, right? Because of the perception of EFIS against stucco. And then also, it would have cost them $50,000, $60,000 to have a drainage layer in there. But again, in their, calculus on the front end, they didn't want to spend that money because it was something that they could do.
[00:17:23] Rommel Sulit: You know, that, to me, that's a fairly simple investment into the future of the, of the, of that project moving forward. And then some other things that happen on that day, a lot of their builders risk collapse and what just happened last week on this project that is incomplete, Hurricane Beryl hit Houston.
[00:17:42] Rommel Sulit: So I'm very concerned about the status of that project today. So that's a great example about how building in the quality on the front end. Really matters.
[00:17:53] Guy Dudley: Yeah, but I think that we are all, we all think we're nice, smart, intelligent, [00:18:00] genius people. We only change because there's pain. And I think that, I mean, I made the joke when you, when you come up, like, once you have a bad contractor, once you have a bad engineer, once you have a bad architect, God forbid, once you have bad insurance, next time that happens, you're like, no, no, no, I'm going to pay more for that.
[00:18:19] Guy Dudley: Because it is cost, it may, it's cheaper up front. I mean, it's more expensive up front, but I'm better down the end. And I think that's a great example. I promise you, I mean, I don't, I don't have a No, I, you're right. In
[00:18:30] Rommel Sulit: prinCCIPle, you're right.
[00:18:32] Guy Dudley: The developer you're talking about will put EFIS or something else in place.
[00:18:37] Guy Dudley: Because next time, you're like, oh, that was the value of what I paid for up front. And so I think that's just the cycle. There will always be designers Insurance and contractors that will be cheaper than the four of us without a doubt and if you as a developer or you as a client wants to come up and we do our pitch we talk about what it is until you feel that pain [00:19:00] you're not going to make that choice like well yeah it's I mean we were just talking about geotech all right well geotech's geotech you just put the holes in the ground like how hard is this gonna be like why why do I think until you have somebody with a geotech report that came up that just cost you 10x Because your foundations for your building were wrong.
[00:19:21] Guy Dudley: Oh, I'm going to pay for a better utility. All of it is just, I think, pain driven. And we all learn. I mean, they talk about multiple redoing your work. Yeah, you can redo your work. You can do it. over over and over again
[00:19:40] Guy Dudley: You know what? I'm sorry we're going to open up. I know we're supposed to open up on Thursday. We're going to open up in two Thursdays just so we can get this done. I know you've got two weeks worth of revenue. Right. We are going to interrupt your clients coming into your, whatever the business was. I'm sorry, but if we do that [00:20:00] during it, it's harder to get people in and out.
[00:20:02] Guy Dudley: So, pain is the only thing that makes people
[00:20:05] DeLea Becker: change. Okay, I've got a question for all of y'all. Pick two things that, your top two things that you consider quality in what you do. In design, in construction, in insurance. That you look at it and you're like, these are the things I care about the most. I care about roofs and I care about I care about the envelope. always.
[00:20:26] DeLea Becker: I probably care less about how much parking spaces I've got. Should haven't had that pain. So from your perspective, like the top two things you're like, this is this is non negotiable. This is important.
[00:20:38] Jeremy Smith: Well, from a construction standpoint, we're doing a condo project in South Austin right now. And it's waterproofing.
[00:20:44] Jeremy Smith: I mean, it's probably the number one conversation. And again, that's not only from a, from a building performance standpoint, but it's from a liability standpoint, you know, five years from now. And so, you know, when we took on the project, we insisted there was a waterproofing consultant on board. You know, we're going to have them very [00:21:00] involved in the project to make sure that they give us recommendations.
[00:21:04] Jeremy Smith: We are going to execute 100 percent of those recommendations and they're going to come back and review that. Kind of give us a letter of concurrence, you know, after that, so that we're protect. Not only do we know that we did it right and we've got other eyes looking at it, but but also to protect everybody and developer down the line.
[00:21:20] Jeremy Smith: Number two, I mean You know, we like to we like to be involved as much as we can on the design side to, you know, because at times I think there is a valuable contractor you know opinion if you want to say that on certain things, because we have to build it. And so we like to be able to look at different systems, structural stuff knowing that we're going to have to execute on that down the line.
[00:21:41] Jeremy Smith: The things we look at are what potentially harm the project after we're done, you know, waterproofing being one acoustical is another one that a lot of people maybe don't talk about, especially on a condo project.
[00:21:53] Jeremy Smith: You know are the party walls, the demising walls going to be built correctly so that, you know, if one family has a son that has a drum set, [00:22:00] the family on the other side of that that has a newborn. It's not, you know, staying up late because they can hear all the, you know, but
[00:22:07] Rommel Sulit: yeah. Yeah. I completely, I completely agree with that.
[00:22:13] Rommel Sulit: So, so yeah, architects and contractors can't get on the tape. I joke around. I say all the time, you want to keep your multifamily tenants happy, keep the water out and keep the sound down. Yeah. I think it's something like 40 percent of claims for a building. Are, are related to envelope infiltration.
[00:22:30] Rommel Sulit: 20 percent of it, of that is your roof area. And, and so fortunately there's solutions for all that, right? I would say that our, we have to build into our best practices as a design team. We have to put that in, in our reCCIPes and our formulas when we produce our construction documents. If the owner chooses to deviate from it, or if the contractor chooses to deviate from it, you at least have an approved set of plans that you can refer to.
[00:22:59] Rommel Sulit: I hate to [00:23:00] say, like, it's crazy that we could talk anecdotally about all these problems that we've had on previous jobs. This project that Guy and I worked on, they had some condensation issues, and they called me back onto the site, and the solution cost them like, I don't know, a quarter million dollars or something crazy like that.
[00:23:17] Rommel Sulit: The benefit of it, so for us, like, the easy thing for us is like, okay, well what's the solution? Well follow the plans. Follow the plans that we produced for you in the first place. So I billed them to reproduce the same exact plans and told them to follow the plans. And our envelope consultant complied with that.
[00:23:37] Rommel Sulit: And we got it fixed. But when people deviate from a set of documents that are, have already gone through the ringer on mandatory building code, have already been reviewed by the, you know, the insurance companies that should be reviewing all these as they go, when you deviate from it, sometimes that's often not tracked well in a given project.
[00:23:59] Rommel Sulit: It's [00:24:00] presented as a change order or something like that, and there's some positive financial benefit to it, but what often isn't tracked is the risk that that poses. Decision you know, saddles the project with, for the life of the project. You only know when things go, as you said, when you start feeling the pain.
[00:24:17] Rommel Sulit: So, so our solution is, we baked into our, into our plans the highest level. We, we, we say in our office code code compliant buildings are the worst legal buildings that you can produce. And, right? So, so we always want to be above that. And we want to record that in the plan.
[00:24:35] DeLea Becker: Yes.
[00:24:41] Collins Bruner: So I'm not sure there's actually like two specific things I would say.
[00:24:44] Collins Bruner: For one, just kind of like a background on insurance, like pick a guy you like and trust and run with that person. Most of us have the same markets. They don't necessarily have the expertise but they can get the market and push it out to you. You know, we're more willing to look at [00:25:00] contracts give it give you advice on that kind of front Look at like can stuff be taken out of like so I'm here to help you not here to like Charge you large amounts of money on your premium just because I want to I want you as a long term client And want to get get them involved early and the other piece You know pick a GC that can actually do the work that has the financials to do it.
[00:25:22] Collins Bruner: So had a project And this kind of reason my next point was We would encourage the owner to normally control the builder's risk and the OCCIP or WRAP or CCCIP. I mean, you, the bigger it gets, we would, I would definitely tell you to look at a CCCIP or a WRAP policy. Explain those to us. Okay. Because you explained it to me and I was like, okay, we'll now I will do that forever.
[00:25:43] Collins Bruner: So it, it starts to make sense about 20 million and up on values. And OCCIP is an owner controlled insurance policy. And just think of it as it basically wraps the project and it's a big. It is the insurance for that project while it's being built, [00:26:00] plus after the statute proposed for any construction defect claims.
[00:26:04] Collins Bruner: And so OCCIP is owner controlled and CCIP is contractor controlled. Both are of value, both work. We would say owner because if you get in a fight with the GC and he walks off the job or goes financially bankrupt, you're out. 'cause you cannot go replace that guy midterm. And that kind of leads me to the next point of.
[00:26:25] Collins Bruner: You know, be realistic on the duration of the project because like on a builder's risk, that insurance company, that underwriter is building out their premiums based on how long it's going to take to build that project. So they're projecting, you know, 90 percent of it to be complete for two months. So then when you extend that for six months or a year, they, you're on, they're on the hook and you're on the hook for paying whatever they're going to pay.
[00:26:53] Collins Bruner: Because they cannot be replaced, because no one wants a half built building just sitting there. So they're going to hurt you on that [00:27:00] premium, where if you were just up front and said it's going to take, you know, let's give two or three months of leeway, you're really going to help control your cost on the back end.
[00:27:09] Collins Bruner: And then back to construct, I mean, the better the construction, the cheaper it's going to be. So like you know, it's hard for the insurance to just give you, to try to eliminate some of the variables. So I ran some rates. So like the Lauren was one company 77 million in values and they're like charged like a 10 cent rate for the project.
[00:27:29] Collins Bruner: So we've done some large 50 million dollar frame five story construction that takes three or four insurance companies that takes financing if you don't pay in full up front and you're looking at 70 80 cent rates. So I mean it adds up fast. So like theirs was 200, 000 in premium and a project about half the size is about 1, 000, 000 in premium.
[00:27:55] Collins Bruner: So, purely because it's a construction [00:28:00] material. So, frame construction, if it catches on fire it's going to burn. There's Dalrock, there's a big frame, it's about a billion dollar building that, er, project that was being built and it, it burned for like 24 hours. My guess is they're going to tear it all down and have to restart.
[00:28:15] Collins Bruner: And then kind of like any frame construction coming up after that's going to get a little rate increase because that project burned down.
[00:28:22] Guy Dudley: Any,
[00:28:23] Guy Dudley: owner developer coming into it they look Rommel brought it up, they are ultimatly responsible. It, honestly, at the end of the day, they can fight in the legal system, to protect them, any of us do. They are on the hook. At the end, they are the guys that are responsible for everything. So, looking at what you're talking about, the better the construction, the cheaper it is for insurance.
[00:28:48] Guy Dudley: The better the construction, the better the plans, the clearer the plans, and you find a contractor that follows the plans, it will go faster because everybody's in the line. So, I [00:29:00] think the number one thing for me is just working together with a team that's going to be able to go through this. Problems are going, to happen on projects it doesn't matter,
[00:29:11] Guy Dudley: if you are remodeling your bathroom or building a 75 story tower on Main Street. Problems are going to happen. And that the team that gets together, put, the team that is put together to handle that is the number one thing. Now, to be dork civil engineer, the number one thing I work for is water. It's our job as a civil engineer to get water onto the site and off the site.
[00:29:35] Guy Dudley: Where it's supposed to be. Now, I think, specifically, one of the things that happens a lot of times with civil engineers, what we're We'll do our work, put our site development plan in, and while the city's working on it, we're doing our next one. They haven't even started a lot of the architecture work. So, once an architect comes on board, they'll start looking at some things, like, and they'll call us.
[00:29:57] Guy Dudley: Like, hey, how about this, like, hold on, I need to go review, I've slept [00:30:00] 18 months since then. So once we come in, and there's a lot of times where what we put our finished floor at, and what the architect puts their finished floor at, is different. You know what that means? Water usually comes into the building.
[00:30:12] Guy Dudley: So that is, I guess, my new show, one of the big things right now.
[00:30:18] DeLea Becker: I know, it's huge. Well
[00:30:19] Guy Dudley: yeah, again, why do I look at that now?
[00:30:23] Guy Dudley: So I know to look for it. Wait.
[00:30:26] DeLea Becker: Where? Where did that happen? I mean not the project, but you put the finished floor this and the architect just got it wrong?
[00:30:33] Guy Dudley: Well, they could change.
[00:30:34] Guy Dudley: A lot of times, and again, I'm not, I'm not sure. Bagging on the architect. I'll bag on lots of other architects.
[00:30:40] Rommel Sulit: Not this one.
[00:30:41] Guy Dudley: Yeah, we did podium. He was way up there. No, a lot of it is just, okay, hey, we need this. Well, alright, well, if we're going to change this, or we need to put this, or we need some more parking in here, and they're like, oh yeah, we'll just do this, and they change the grades.
[00:30:57] Guy Dudley: A lot of times, well, a client's like, we just moved the [00:31:00] building five feet. Why is that costing me a lot of money to raise a change order? I was like, are you kidding me? We're rerouting all the water around the site. Again, you don't know that until you do it. So, in this specific case, what I was talking about, we set the finished floor, the architect came in, took it, and literally just moved it six inches.
[00:31:19] Guy Dudley: In the big scheme of things, on acres of sites, on acres size wise of a site, six inches, how much is that? Except where this happened to be, was right where a driveway was coming down, which was a whole bunch of water was right in there, and I mean, maybe this is on us too, but we didn't check that. Like, oh, we gave you the finished floor, why would we check that?
[00:31:42] DeLea Becker: You trusted that the architect followed your plan? Well,
[00:31:45] Guy Dudley: again, it's not just the architect, it's the team. So, the problem, we ended up fixing it, not a problem, it's all done, now it's part of our list. Can I
[00:31:55] Rommel Sulit: elaborate on that? So, I realize that I probably only offered one of the [00:32:00] two, which is, you know, make sure that your plans are, are you know, are properly appointed, covering, you know, focusing on the envelope and access is another part of it.
[00:32:09] Rommel Sulit: I think the second thing, to your point, is focusing on those those transitional areas where there's, there's a shared coordination between the, yeah, where the scopes come together. And it becomes a really interesting thing because, you know, civil. For example, they're responsible for grading, general grading, and then we can get into micro grading and that kind of thing.
[00:32:32] Rommel Sulit: But at some point, where, where does that interface become really relevant with respect to the building? And that, it happens at all the thresholds. And it's, it's, it's different, and so I learned in Houston, which is like flood prone and everything, that there's a requirement in Houston for all the thresholds to be flush Exterior grade is, which is counter to how we've always done it around here.
[00:32:55] Rommel Sulit: We always want to observe kind of the accessibility criteria, right? Which is like, [00:33:00] I can't have more than half an inch level change, right? At, at, at accessible entrances and things like that. So understanding that, understanding whose scope is which, and make sure that's coordinated , is done.
[00:33:12] Rommel Sulit: We've had multiple projects where the accessible routes. We're responsible for the accessible routes within the building, but ultimately the question is who's responsible for the accessible routes outside of the building, right? That's shared scope, right? Things like retaining walls. You know, it took me 10 years to figure out that civil engineers don't do retaining walls.
[00:33:33] Rommel Sulit: That's a structural requirement, and if you have to, if I have to hire Manhard to do my retaining walls, they have to hire a structural consultant to do the retaining walls. So. And then also MEP, like typically what all the MEP work is, extends out to five feet outside the footprint of your building and then civil has to pick up from there.
[00:33:52] Rommel Sulit: So those little, those little transitional areas which ultimately is going to cost you a lot of money to, to, you know, fill in those [00:34:00] gaps. And if it's not reflected in the drawings, then who's got it, right? So,
[00:34:05] Guy Dudley: I think that brings up a good point across the board of finding a good contractor
[00:34:11] Guy Dudley: we make the plans. We have the construction manual to build the building. They have to build it. They have to fix everything we do wrong. We may all do a code. We may do right. There may be places we put together. The contractor has to fix this. And so hopefully you have a good team together that puts this in.
[00:34:35] Guy Dudley: You know, a good contractor will come up. Weeks, if not months ahead, say, Hey, Guy you see this? How do we build this? We're like, this is what we're gonna do. And even if it's the point, like, you know, talking about the ADA change, ADA is a civil engineer's nightmare. How we have the grades, the slopes, sidewalks, crossing streets, trying to find ways to [00:35:00] make water work, plus make accessibility.
[00:35:02] Guy Dudley: And you know who fixes a lot of that? The contractor. We're like, I have this drawing of
[00:35:07] Guy Dudley: I come out there, I dont know how we are going to fix it. so we talk to the team. But at the end of the day, those are the guys that have to fix it. So that's part of
[00:35:16] DeLea Becker: the team
[00:35:16] DeLea Becker: I'm going to open it up for questions. If you have no questions, we're going to let them talk for minutes. Anybody have a question?
[00:35:24] DeLea Becker: Oh, goody! Let's
[00:35:25] Audience: talk about IBC chapter 17 special inspections. Like, there's supposed to be a checks and balances system here. And I think it's often overlooked, the importance of it, and the execution of it is often overlooked. So, you know, everybody defers back to the city building inspectors, but do they actually have the true education that they need to be doing these inspections?
[00:35:48] Audience: And the fact that IBC says they're held harmless, they're not liable
[00:35:54] Audience: and
[00:35:54] Audience: held harmless of any kind of oversight on their part. So, we really need [00:36:00] to be going to the third party inspectors to make sure that these are being done, executed in accordance.
[00:36:05] Rommel Sulit: Question is about IBC section 17, which defines the The requirements for special inspections on a project, which often are going to be conducted by either the local jurisdiction or third party reviewer. So, so I would say most of the special inspections and it differs by jurisdiction, right?
[00:36:23] Rommel Sulit: So that that section is meant to be exhaustive of all the potential special inspections that could occur on projects. In the city of Austin, for example, I think a lot of that flows through their structural team. So, usually, the requirements for special inspections are defined in their general notes in their special plans.
[00:36:42] Rommel Sulit: And then there's other things that are kind of like, sort of kind of related to that, deferred submittals. Anything that is submitted to the city for for permit oversight and mandatory building code, That is, that is not part of our sealed set of plans, right? So, you know, if you [00:37:00] go to the City of Austin, most jurisdictions, there's a checklist of deferred submittals that you have to record.
[00:37:05] Rommel Sulit: That way everyone's on the ready to observe those and sign off on them. For a lot of structural special inspections, a letter of concurrence is sufficient. But then there's all those other things, if there's any kind of like specialty construction, that kind of thing, yes, I agree. Third party reviewers.
[00:37:20] Rommel Sulit: Have to be in tow. Now, ultimately, I will say that that responsibility falls on the owner, the developer, right? Those, those, those folks typically contracted them. And then, if you have a development team that isn't, let's say, schooled in these processes, then you can often find gaps down the road in that regard.
[00:37:41] Rommel Sulit: We have to make sure that development teams are, understand where, where there's gaps that we're unable to fill. Sometimes we have to step in and fill in those gaps for them. Things like easements, right? Easements, dedication of easements, that kind, that falls on the owner's responsibility.
[00:37:56] Rommel Sulit: But a lot of owners don't know that. I don't know how many projects I've had [00:38:00] where there's a, there's still a blanket easement on the project that dates back 10, 15 years, and it was never dedicated. It was never off on. And so there's no, as-built and then you know sort of like plans to define like there's a duct bank.
[00:38:13] Rommel Sulit: You know, five feet outside of your building on the front end and then, you know, guys like Jeremy have to discover it and then deliver the bad news that we've got to move our building, you know, five feet over. So, so those kind of things ultimately fall on the owner's responsibility. We can certainly help them figure out where, where those, those gaps are.
[00:38:32] Rommel Sulit: But yeah, that's a, that's a good point. That, that's a really important aspect of the project that could cost you down the road. Because. and have somebody lined up for it. Commission. Commissioning is another thing.
[00:38:43] Jeremy Smith: I'll add to that, though, and not in gently disagree that I think it's more in the contractor side a little bit because, you know, we're ultimately responsible for calling and getting a lot of those inspections.
[00:38:54] Jeremy Smith: And so, you know, we, we, So today we've got, I think, 15 different active projects in [00:39:00] 15 different jurisdictions. And like Rommel said, every jurisdiction is a little bit different with what they require for inspection. So, you know, we ask a lot of questions. It's not always clear. Sometimes it gets a little murky.
[00:39:11] Jeremy Smith: We have to ask a lot of questions and you know, our, our guys at the superintendent level have a checklist in the job shot trailer of every inspection that's going to be required. And we don't just do that one time we check back and check back because it's again, sometimes, you know, especially we got green and green energy building stuff, third party, special inspections, the actual city inspection.
[00:39:30] Jeremy Smith: So there's multiple layers. And I, you know, again, I respectfully, you know, push back on that because we, we, we take ownership of that. Because we're on the front lines of making sure that a lot of those inspections happen or get called in a timely manner. And then we have to work again with the engineers for letters of concurrence and deferred submittals and all that.
[00:39:48] Jeremy Smith: So, yeah, it can get daunting sometimes. The only way, the only way we know to combat that is just keep a lot of pressure and ask a lot of questions. Call the city, you know collaborate with the design team. Hey, is there, is there any other inspections that [00:40:00] you guys know we need to get? You know, it's, it's a lot.
[00:40:02] Rommel Sulit: And sometimes the city. You know, there's a lot, there's been a lot of turnover at every jurisdiction, highest levels and a lot of departments don't actually talk to each other. So it's sort of like, you know, Houston, for example, , if someone in planning wants to know what we're doing, wants to know what we've submitted Based on some kind of traffic need.
[00:40:23] Rommel Sulit: I actually have to submit the drawings to the, It's not like there's a, there isn't a single repository. Where everyone can go to and say, Oh, well here's an interesting recent change. I have to basically be proactive. Yeah. And train up everybody on that end. And every jurisdiction is different. I mean it's It's, it's crazy.
[00:40:40] Rommel Sulit: It's crazy. I can't believe I
[00:40:43] Audience: So DeLea and I were talking on Wednesday about the difference between building building and flipping quickly or building to hold
[00:40:53] Audience: and are actually building high quality about. Are you guys in positions [00:41:00] to turn down the ones that are quick flips? Or do you guys just not talk about those and still do
[00:41:06] Guy Dudley: them? It depends on the client. If, so to the point, I can't obviously speak about them, but. We're in a position to turn down a client.
[00:41:17] Guy Dudley: But, just because it's a quick flip doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Maybe somebody's looking into to do this and do this right. And do it quickly. I mean, one of the things I think that Jeremy talked about, I don't know this but I'm going to assume, he talked about a lot of times doing business. I'll bet you, especially a lot of, I think you said it was coffee?
[00:41:39] Guy Dudley: That's probably a quick turnaround. But since they do it over and over and over and over, they know what they're doing. I assume they know what they're doing, and that team does it. And does it better. I think it's more of a mindset because it's back to, let's say, your quick flip for you want to do an apartment complex or a duplex or a house.
[00:41:56] Guy Dudley: You think about flipping a house. Is this a place you're gonna live? Is this a place [00:42:00] you want your kids to live? Your mom to live? All right, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But if you're like, no, I don't, then I want to be part of that.
[00:42:07] Jeremy Smith: Would just say, you know, we don't do a lot of we don't do really any small residential.
[00:42:12] Jeremy Smith: Projects that would be a flip. The closest thing I would say that we do is we work for a few build a suit developers that on these coffee shops, they'll, they'll build the project specifically to, to sell it to an investment group. And so their involvement is very short term with the project.
[00:42:27] Jeremy Smith: But again, with, with the, the bigger concept is still a pretty small world. So if we, you know, if we were to build something very cheaply, quick, inexpensively cut corners so that the developer, you benefits from his sale. Maybe a little bit. It's still in a broader community that if something happens six months a year down the line, they're gonna know that Citadel built that and it was, you know, had major problems.
[00:42:49] Jeremy Smith: So we we think about that. And again, not not to mention it's, you know, we've got warranties that we provide and an obligation. Well after the certificate of occupancy, and it just [00:43:00] doesn't make good business to have to keep going back and fixing things, and, and, you know, we have enough of that as it is.
[00:43:05] Jeremy Smith: We don't want to create those problems ourselves. And
[00:43:07] Rommel Sulit: I would say most of the buildings, most of the multi family buildings I've worked on have been flips, right? Right. A condo is a flip, right? Cause you know, you're going to turn over an HOA at some point and then all hell breaks loose.
[00:43:18] Rommel Sulit: But, but basically the, the, what's evolved for me is that you know, most of the developers I've worked with, , they're creating a product, right? That has value. And then they're going to, they're going to sell it to a property management company or somebody who, who's going to hold it in perpetuity. It really wasn't until we started doing a lot of affordable housing where our developers are going to hold it and, you know, maintain it in perpetuity.
[00:43:41] Rommel Sulit: You know, every, every housing project in affordable housing has to be, it's like for the next hundred years or something like that. You can't flip that. So, what does that mean in terms of how I approach my work? What's, what it's evolved for us is like there's a professional standard of care. And at my company, it's here, right?
[00:43:59] Rommel Sulit: And if [00:44:00] you're going to choose to work with that, with, with that standard of care, with Forgecraft, that's what you're in line for. We're not going to. You know, that project that I mentioned in Houston, the owner tried to get us to change our drawings to remove those drainage layers and stuff. And I said, you know what?
[00:44:17] Rommel Sulit: I'm not gonna do that, because I'm not gonna deviate from what I know is gonna be a code compliant thing. And my names are on the plans, my seals are on the plans, and when you get into a bind, I want to make sure that you can refer to those drawings and say, all right, here's the solution. We've had it all the time.
[00:44:33] Rommel Sulit: My ruby red slippers, you know, and, it protects me for sure. You're the only, you don't have to pay attention to any of our plans. You can do whatever the heck you want, really. But, you know, there's a risk involved in doing that.
[00:44:47] Collins Bruner: So I'll say for the most part, like, if it's a quick flip, the developer's not going to buy an OSIP.
[00:44:53] Collins Bruner: We'll try to educate them on the front end Here's the advantages So a good example is a it's a [00:45:00] local building. It's just it's a multifamily Apartments just been finished Pitch to him. OCIP. You need a OCIP strongly encourage. OCIP. No, no. No, we're cutthroat. We want to do it cheap. So You know, y'all might be able to guess what happened.
[00:45:15] Collins Bruner: But so there's a plumber that's had two separate claims one You We'll call it six months ago, one, three months ago. So they've now learned, well, now we're having to go through the sub's insurance and the GC's insurance. And since there's been two claims that are multi million dollars, there's a good chance that that sub is out of their insurance.
[00:45:38] Collins Bruner: They've exhausted all their limits. So then it's the GC's problem. And then, you know, if that Plummer goes to another project, does the work, has another claim over there. You would never know, but his, his insurance has probably already been exhausted from those other two claims. And you don't know, like on an OSIP, it covers you out to the statute of repose, which is 10 [00:46:00] years in Texas and, and class action lawsuits on the, on a condo deal.
[00:46:04] Collins Bruner: So that's why an OSIP is so important so the, the OCCIP protects you from that stuff. So the next time around he'll probably be like, well, maybe it's not that bit about an idea. There's an upfront cost versus like, like the GC we're talking earlier, the GC is gonna charge you, you know, their, they're 10% insurance fee, or the OCCIP is gonna be paid up front, but it's, you're gonna pay you off on the back end.
[00:46:23] Collins Bruner: And more than likely that person, that company will buy it going forward.
[00:46:27] Jeremy Smith: But a lot of times the cost of the OCIP too is, is not a hundred percent on, well, you're not paying both a hundred percent of the insurance policies for both. Because I know on ours, our policy premium goes way down, way down if there's an OSIP on the project, right?
[00:46:41] Jeremy Smith: So you're not doubling up.
[00:46:43] Collins Bruner: Yeah, it's normally excluded. So the OSIP is the deal. You'll normally pay work comp. If it's a 100 million project, you can get work comp. But it's generally just a general liability for an OSIP. And like I said, if it's a long term hold, or, you know, you can look at any condo.
[00:46:59] Collins Bruner: You [00:47:00] can look at the condo right down the street that's going through. I just look at the outside and and see the metal not looking as well as it good. I mean, that's, that's coming up. The ACs weren't done correctly. So that's, that's an issue. There is an OSIP on that deal. And you try to, you try to avoid it because it's hard to flip them.
[00:47:16] Collins Bruner: Those condo owners can't buy and sell. But I mean, there's some value in it and you don't know it until, until something goes wrong. The one other thing I'll tell you On the, on the builder's risk side. So there's kind of three parts. So there's the hard costs. So that's what it costs to build it, the soft costs.
[00:47:34] Collins Bruner: So if something does happen, the extra expense of rebuilding it. So like the insurance, you're gonna have to pay an architect. Civil's gonna have to do their, the ADA compliance all over again. And then loss of rents or like loss of sales on the backend. So that's where you can really, and the loss of sales is the highest rated because if you got a, if you got a fire.
[00:47:54] Collins Bruner: You can't sell it later on. So you'll see a lot of cut and cost. We just want that number [00:48:00] here. I'll write it for you, but I'm definitely going to say a disclaimer that this was your limit that you, that you chose to do. That makes sense. Work with them, but I'm going to protect myself. I'm going to protect myself.
[00:48:13] Collins Bruner: Okay.
[00:48:28] DeLea Becker: Stay in chat formation. They're all linked to them in the post. So reach out to them. Clearly, I give them a stamp of approval if you're looking for something like this and they're a wealth of knowledge because they.
[00:48:45] Rommel Sulit: Can I make a marketing pitch?
[00:48:46] DeLea Becker: You can. Which everybody gets to. Yeah, if anyone wants to. So make
[00:48:50] Rommel Sulit: it fast.
[00:48:51] Rommel Sulit: I just conducted a podcast with my colleague Chris Krager at KRDB. That was monitored by Christoph Erwin with Positive Energy. He's part of the building science [00:49:00] community. They're like the nuclear physicists of the MEP community, I would say. And he interviewed us, talked about modular architecture and advanced building sciences.
[00:49:08] Rommel Sulit: So, it's a two part podcast. podcast that just dropped this past week. And if anyone's interested in it, please reach out to me. I'll forward it to you. I might just even post it on my LinkedIn. And it's we get in the weeds on, on that thing. It's a whole other, it's a different sausage we're talking about there.
[00:49:25] DeLea Becker: Just
[00:49:26] Rommel Sulit: trying to make I will post
[00:49:27] DeLea Becker: and on LinkedIn also. Yes. Thank you.
